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Lesson Introduction
Most of us were there back when we were children - struggling through "The Entertainer" with our music teachers identifying every little mistake. Well join ItalianPod today as we put you right back into those music lessons of our youth with this podcast. You'll be learning all about how to describe speed.
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billkaulitzlover says
July 7, 2008
Io suonava il violino e il pianoforte quando era piccola. Adesso non ricordo quasi nulla. :)
missworldtraveler says
July 8, 2008
Lady / Gent, You are terrific in my book -- and I think I know you know why I say that. Thanks for your understanding.
john says
July 8, 2008
My life in Shanghai is usually troppo veloce, but now that I'm back in the USA it's troppo lento!
I'm listening to ItalianPod with my mom and she's enjoying it! :D
anna8 says
July 8, 2008
Ciao ragazzi, Questo podcast è lento ma non troppo.
Ti posso fare una domanda? In the expansion exercises, there is this sentence:
Mio fratello guida troppo veloce.
Why not "il mio fratello"? When do you need the definite article and when can you omit it?
Grazie. (and please, please correct my pathetic Italian...thanks)
catherinem says
July 8, 2008
Anna8-
Very good question. In cases of family members, there is no need to include the article when using the possessive pronoun.This is also the case for some idiomatic phrases, but for now let's stick to family members.
Unlike when we say,
il mio libro
la sua casa
when describing family members, we don't use the article when they're singular (we do when they're plural)
mia mamma
suo fratello
vostro nonno
and also
tuo marito
sua moglie
Hope this helped to answer your question. Your Italian isn't pathetic, and in fact I encourage questions!
anna8 says
July 9, 2008
Grazie, Catherine. Yes, that was an excellent explanation.
marcod says
July 10, 2008
Anna8, all of your questions are welcome, as long as you keep your avatar pic and un grande saluto alla mamma di John!
:D marco.
fabrizio says
July 11, 2008
Hi Catherine, with the "standard" family name like "padre" (father), "madre" (mother), "fratello" (brother), "sorella" (sister), and so on, we normally don't use the article before the possessive adjective, as you said.
But with "affectional" terms, like "mamma" (mommy), "papà" or "babbo" (daddy), and when the "standard" name has an endearment suffix like "sorellina", "nonnino", "zietta", we normally do use the article:
"Quanti anni ha tua sorella?" (How old is your sister?)
but
"Quanti anni ha la tua sorellina?" (How old is your little sister?)
"Come si chiama tua madre?" (What's your mother's name?)
but
"Come si chiama la tua mamma?" (What's your mommy's name?)
By the way, I really have no idea about why it is this way...
michele says
July 11, 2008
è proprio così, e neanche io ne ho la più pallida idea, bisognerà pensarci un po'...
auntie68 says
July 11, 2008
Hi. I am not a native speaker (ha ha ha!!), but this is what I was taught:
Rule #1: For Singular nouns denoting family members (eg. "mamma") --> the definite article is omitted:
Eg. Mia nonna (*not la mia nonna...)
EXCEPT -- Rule #2 -- where, even though the noun is singular as per the general Rule #1, the subject's possessive adjective is loro/Loro:
Eg. La lora nonna (*not lora nonna... here you can't omit the definite article "la"...)
There is an additional case -- ie, Rule #3 --, raised by fabrizio and confirmed by michele, where the singular noun is given in a diminutive form (eg. -ino, -ina etc etc):
Eg. La mia sorellina (*not Mia sorella). La nostra mammina (*not Nostra mamma). Il tuo fratellino (*not Tuo fratello). Il nostro babbo (*that's from "padre" = father; *so not Nostro padre).
Michele, Fabrizio, ItalianPod, I'm sorry if this abuses the Italian language, but it is the rule that I (barely think that) I understood when I looked it up, inth my usual learner's confusion.
If you can confirm any part of this, and maybe even supply some original example sentences (*so that I don't have to infringe copyright in my "grammar book"!!!), you'll be helping A LOT of nervous learners like me! Thank you so much!
michele says
July 11, 2008
ciao Sharon,
you're incredibly good for finding out any sort of new good rules!
It seems, for the moment, they work pretty well.
I'm so sorry if Italian seems such a mess of rules, counter-rules, and counter-counter-rules (?)...
Very good for babbo, it does exist babbino too! See Puccini's aria, from "Gianni Schicchi" O Mio Babbino Caro. I have in my mind that extra-famous version performed by Maria Callas, an old black&white video from a TV recording in the USA.... I used to address so to my father, but, even though everywhere in Italy it should be understood without any problem, I think it's mostly used only here in Toscana or so. Finally, let me give the last suggestion: just have a look to Collodi's Pinocchio, a true masterpiece of literature, you'll discover a plenty of good old Italian words...
ciao a tutti
P.S.: you'll notice I did not put any link to possible suspicious site... but now, if I may respectfully ask you, why do you look so sensitive to those copyright issues? (I will accept any attitude of yours, of course)
anna8 says
July 11, 2008
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo così simpatico è Marco, eh? Johnny, why didn't you tell me what a nice boy Marco is?
Grazie a tutti ma dopo aver letto tutte le regole, ho mal di testa :-) Thank you everyone, but after reading all the rules, I have a headache.
(Please, please correct me -- I'm building sentences out of Lego blocks here and I never know if what I'm writing makes any sense at all!)
michele says
July 11, 2008
ciao Anna8,
your sentences are easily understandable, and:
Grazie a tutti ma dopo aver letto tutte le regole, ho mal di testa is very good, absolutely correct (I feel a little bit responsible for your headache...) nothing to change at all.
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo così simpatico è Marco, eh? quite good too, but in this case, perhaps così it doesn't work properly. I don't know exactly why, maybe I'd say:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo simpatico è Marco, eh?
or:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo simpatico era (è) Marco, eh?
or even:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che Marco era (è) un ragazzo così simpatico, eh?
I cannot explain better than this, but this what my ear feels as a good flowing Italian. Maybe in a few hour time Marco or Catherine could say something more about it.
in ogni caso sei molto brava,
ciao Michele.
anna8 says
July 11, 2008
Ciao Michele,
Thanks so much for a full and thoughtful answer. Actually, what you say about that second sentence is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm trying to develop a sense of what sounds or feels intuitively correct -- I doubt that a technical explanation would be nearly as instructive as your excellent examples.
Gratefully,
Anna
auntie68 says
July 11, 2008
Hello Italianauts! @michele: Would you believe me if I told you that I own only two novels in Italian, and one of them is the 1883 version of Pinocchio? Bought nearly ten years ago, but never read because it was too difficult for me at the time.
Thanks to your recommendation, I shall start today. "C'era una volta... " My edition even comes with the entire text on six audiocassettes -- an early audiobook! --, which I'll be able to listen to in my car later! And the words are indeed beautiful. Thank you so much, Michele.
P/s: The other novel is "Il rumore sordo della battaglia", written by a friend of mine. But given that it's bristling with difficult vocabulary and historical detail, I'll have to study for a further ten years before tackling that one.
Anna8: My favourite Babbo is Babbo Natale (Father Christmas).
marcod says
July 11, 2008
hey there everyone! I see you're having fun with grammar and rules ;). I just wanted to thank everyone for creating such good exchange of information.
I think Catherine's post was a great and simple and a clear explanation. All the exceptions and the addings are important but they might result confusing for elementary learners (actually I am also confused now--OH NOOO over-explanantion alarm!! AAAAAHHHHH!)
auntie68 says
July 11, 2008
Dear Marco, I think that if ItalianPod were a traditional classroom, you and Catherine would make Michele, Fabrizio and me sit as far apart from each other as geometrically possible in the room... Do Italian teachers do that too?
P/s: I agree that Catherine's explanation was great. Fabrizio started it!
catherinem says
July 11, 2008
Thanks, everyone, for your thorough and interesting explanations! I'd like to make a note about the sentences Anna8 wrote, and about the corrections Michele offered.
Anna8 wrote:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo così simpatico è Marco, eh? Johnny, why didn't you tell me what a nice boy Marco is?
Michele offered some alternatives:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo simpatico è Marco, eh?
or:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che ragazzo simpatico era (è) Marco, eh?
Anna8: when you use the word che in this way, it is a kind of adjective (aggetivo esclamativo). It's kind of like saying 'what a nice guy' in English. You could also say 'what a nice day:' che bella giornata. You'll see that in the first two of Michele's examples he has created a similar phrase: 'che ragazzo simpatico.'
If you want to emphasize how nice the person is, (using cosi') then you can look to Michele's third example:
Gianni, perché non mi hai detto che Marco era (è) un ragazzo così simpatico, eh?
Which I would translate as:
Gianni, why didn't you tell me that Marco was (is) such a nice guy?
(In this case che is no longer an adjective, but is instead a conjunction).
I encourage trying to keep practicing your writing and reading skills by sharing your sentences in these conversation sections. If you keep doing this phrases and constructions will start to become more intuitive!
anna8 says
July 11, 2008
"Fabrizio started it"!!! Oh, Auntie!
Thank you once again and, to paraphrase that great American philosopher, Gary Larson --
"Miss Catherine, may I be excused? My brain is full!"
sonobono says
July 13, 2008
Grazie a tutti! I think I'm learning almost as much from the students as from the teachers; with apologies to Catherine and Marco.
marcod says
July 13, 2008
No apologies necessary, we are not teachers in the discussions, but rather part of the community. We chip in with our knowledge and try to direct the conversation towards Italian language/culture focused discussions.
Questo è il vostro salotto, noi cerchiamo solo di fare gli onori di casa (il bagno è in fondo a destra)! ;)
marco "danger" de mutiis